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Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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bigro
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#51
Please explain

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(05-08-2016, 02:50 PM)Bobert Wrote: I have a bit of basic forum adventure advice that I think could apply to generally most forms of storytelling stuff:

Self inserts are terrible and don't ever do them, even as a joke. Because people will get confused and think you are probably some kind of legit egomaniac or something. If you're going to make characters based off your close pals, don't make them into like supreme deities either or do some other kind of kiss-arsey thing. Maybe ask them first if you're really dead set on it.
Yes, but have you considered every character being a self insert, variations of the same person even.

(05-09-2016, 12:09 AM)Dragon Fogel Wrote: The key to making self-inserts work is to make sure they have character flaws. This is where people usually slip up with them.
This is undeniably true, and also true for the inverse.

Basically, self inserts are not immune to being shit characters. Because these are things that make shit characters in general.

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05-09-2016, 03:11 AM
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a52
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#52
the god eater

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I think author inserts (ala homestuck) are generally more acceptable than self-inserts, if that makes sense. But still only when the story is already kind of silly and meta.
05-09-2016, 03:19 AM
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Gimeurcookie
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#53
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Self inserts is a real make it or break it situation for me. I know there have been more then a few times I dropped a webcomic because the author would throw in a self insert and make the whole story, or at least the current arc, revolve around them. It really strikes me as weird and a little awkward and I tend to drop the story if the arc runs too long and I wasn't that invested in the story in the first place.*

There have been a few self inserts I've seen that improved the comic instead of kicking me away but those are very few and far between. So yeah be careful when putting in self inserts, it can work but if not done just right it can totally turn off readers. You want to avoid having your story suddenly revolve around yourself or having the arc basically turn what feels like a drug psa.


*This isn't counting webcomics that are suppose to be about the author and/or their lives because those comics were designed to be about the author instead of throwing them in midway.
05-09-2016, 03:29 AM
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OrangeAipom
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#54
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(05-09-2016, 03:11 AM)bigro Wrote: Yes, but have you considered every character being a self insert, variations of the same person even.

rip majhost :,(

(05-09-2016, 03:29 AM)Gimeurcookie Wrote: *This isn't counting webcomics that are suppose to be about the author and/or their lives because those comics were designed to be about the author instead of throwing them in midway.
those are called memoirs, not self-inserts

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05-09-2016, 03:31 AM
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bigro
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#55
Please explain

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(05-09-2016, 03:31 AM)OrangeAipom Wrote:
(05-09-2016, 03:11 AM)bigro Wrote: Yes, but have you considered every character being a self insert, variations of the same person even.

rip majhost :,(

Crying Eagle too good for this world.

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05-09-2016, 03:32 AM
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Solekii
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#56
 

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(05-09-2016, 03:19 AM)a52 Wrote: I think author inserts (ala homestuck) are generally more acceptable than self-inserts, if that makes sense. But still only when the story is already kind of silly and meta.

I agree. But most 'author' inserts tend to be an exaggerated version of the creator, or even a different character entirely (or an assumption of who the author is). Good ones are more like pen-handles ala 'Lemony Snicket' or something. Those can be pretty fun.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2016, 06:16 AM by Solekii.)
05-09-2016, 06:15 AM
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Schazer
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#57
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If you combine all of my characters you get 2.5 me's and assorted anime fragments
05-09-2016, 06:49 AM
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Wheat
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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I thought you were an anime fragment

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05-09-2016, 07:07 AM
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Schazer
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#59
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I'm a fusion dance between an anime, a shitpost, and a small but biologically diverse patch of temperate forest
05-09-2016, 07:22 AM
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Wheat
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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I don't know anything about princess mononoke besides it has something to do with forests, and maybe a wolf

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(This post was last modified: 05-09-2016, 09:02 AM by Wheat.)
05-09-2016, 07:32 AM
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tronn
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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I think there's two levels to author self inserts.

On one level all authors channel parts of themselves into the characters they write, and that's entirely natural and a-okay thing to do. Even then what should be avoided is the author using a character as a soapbox for their ideas - that gets old real quick.

On the other level is the author inserting themselves as a character in the story they're writing, and that can be really offputting unless the story is explicitly autobiographical, because at that point the person is basically writing fan-fiction about themselves.

Now, even that can be made to work but it requires caution. What I did in my previous forum adventure was to have my forum avatar directly address the audience occasionally, but I kept that within the metafiction - that is, I wrote another level of fiction to the story, where the characters were actors playing roles, and my forum persona was the director of the show (and the actual forum adventure was that show). Basically a fictional behind the scenes view! Even then I ended up dropping that, because some readers started giving suggestions to me the author instead of the characters in the story.
05-09-2016, 11:18 AM
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OrangeAipom
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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(05-09-2016, 11:18 AM)tronn Wrote: Even then what should be avoided is the author using a character as a soapbox for their ideas - that gets old real quick.

I don't exactly remember how the phrase goes, but it's something like "All cartoons are political and all writing is didactic." I think the problem isn't spreading ideas, but bad writing.

You know the story of the Dude of Wisdom humiliating a Loud and Irrational Straw Guy for not being like the Dude of Wisdom? It's a classic, almost as old as the Hero's Journey. It's also bad writing because it's just as entertaining no matter what the Dude of Wisdom's viewpoint is.

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05-09-2016, 04:05 PM
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Arashi500
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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So fellow adventure-readers, when presented with the choice of reading it as posted on a forum or on a mirror, which are you more inclined to read on and does the presence or lack of a mirror affect your willingness to read an adventure in the first place?

Spoiler: Rootborn Adventure
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05-11-2016, 11:03 AM
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Bobert
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#64
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It honestly depends, I can be very fickle with my adventure reading. Sometimes the way the text is formatted on a forum turns me off from reading so if the option of reading it on a mirror is available I do it. Most of my mirror reading is done to avoid posts which stretch out the updates, like I wouldn't want to scroll through 5 fucking pages just to get to the next update because the readers got crazy in the absence of the OP/Author. That is unless the updates and choices that the readers impart on the story are more crucial to read. Good adventures foster that. Like Superego, THG, Fortuna and all that jazz (though I must confess I read a good chunk of Superego on its mirror because I got irritated somehow by reading it on the old forums). With Fortuna for example everyone speculated and came up with all these different alien races and shit and I really liked to observe that brainstorming. THG sort of occupies the same boat as Superego for me.
05-11-2016, 11:21 AM
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Dragon Fogel
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#65
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There's also adventures like Supersoldier and Art of Domination that have a focus on strategy. In cases like that, the reader comments are very important to understanding the adventure, because that's where the strategic discussion takes place.

If you just read the updates for either of those adventures, you're missing a lot of what's going on. There are entire debates on strategic approaches and they have a pretty significant impact on what ends up happening.
05-11-2016, 02:46 PM
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Gimeurcookie
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#66
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I think Bobert captures my thoughts pretty much exactly. Adventures like Art of Domination which have VERY in depth strategy posts pretty much require reading in to it. It's at least half the fun of the comic! But for many adventures I enjoy a mirror a lot more. I'm so easily distracted sometimes that if we're in a cooling period in the comic (where little to no action is going on) sometimes I'll get flat out distracted by something in someone's sig and trail off to another webpage after setting a bookmark.

Also yeah time to time if there's a lot of posts between updates someone can miss the author's post and have to backtrack in confusion.

A mirror semi affects my willingness to read an adventure. A good opening will make me read the adventure no matter what format but a mirror makes me read a few more pages if the opening to the adventure didn't draw me in automatically. Basically at least for me, a mirror allows the author a little more time to bring out their hook.
(This post was last modified: 05-11-2016, 04:46 PM by Gimeurcookie.)
05-11-2016, 04:43 PM
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Solekii
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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I generally prefer to read the mirror to catch up on long-running adventures that there's no way I'd be able to trek through page after page without getting distracted. But I really like when reader input is important, so adventures that incorporate that I might be more inclined to read through forum-style. I just with there was a way to read text adventures more fluidly.

New adventures that I've stuck with since the start I'm probably just going to catch on the forum, though.
05-11-2016, 05:00 PM
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OrangeAipom
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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Mirrors are ok but making mirrors is a pain

In general i'd rather read adventures that I've been reading since the beginning, resorting to reading the mirror if peer pressure leaves me no choice.

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05-11-2016, 05:16 PM
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Justice Watch
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#69
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I tend to prefer to read adventures that are newer, and thus when I click on a thread and see that it does have a mirror, I am immediately deterred. Sinking several afternoons into reading a whole thing doesn't really appeal to me. And that's unfortunate, since I know it's a good thing for both the author and the reader to do! Take that how you will I guess.

That said, reading though an adventure on a mirror is much better than sifting through suggestions on the forums.

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05-11-2016, 07:57 PM
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Papers
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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I was worried that would happen to some people.

How can I indicate by my mirror link that despite having a mirror, my adventure isn't that long yet?

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05-11-2016, 08:30 PM
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OrangeAipom
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#71
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05-11-2016, 09:07 PM
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Solekii
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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You could advertise it as a 'new mirror' for your adventure, that makes it look like it isn't quite as daunting to start reading.

That being said the first time I read homestuck I finished it in two weeks of persistent reading. So I guess if people like it, they'll read it regardless (I'm gonna get through Fortuna one of these days. Dang school getting in the way of my reading)
05-11-2016, 09:54 PM
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btp
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#73
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The mirror issue is a critical one, because as a genera, forum adventures are limited.

If you're a reader and you plan to invest several hours in a webcomic or other story, which would you choose: A carefully thought out and edited work, or a work slapped together with reader suggestions on an update by update schedule?

You'd be foolish not to choose the former! (I think this is a point worth discussing, so I'll leave it undefended here). Often, the primary motive for reading an adventure's backlog is to catch up so you can suggest for where it is now. But if that's your goal, then you're not trying to read a story, you're trying to play a game.

Now forum adventures, or interactive webcomics, whatever you want to call them, blur the line between story and game pretty well, but in all honesty, the rules of the game directly inhibit the telling of the story.

There is a larger post, somewhere here, about what the real advantages and disadvantages of forum adventures actually are. It's a discussion that involves questions like "is this a sustainable medium?" "can a forum adventure be financially viable?" "Can adventures draw in and handle larger audiences?"

EagleTime is a tiny space on the web, but the idea of the medium it is ostensibly built around is much larger, and one that, I think, should be explored and promoted beyond what a forum can offer.

Returning to ideas about mirrors, I recently discovered Adobe Slate, which although far form perfect, I think has real potential to make reading a mirror an engaging, unique process, separate from the adventure-suggesting portion.

If you glance through that, can anyone think of other resources that could expand the idea of what experiencing a mirror should be like? (Perezi comes to mind, but other than that I don't have many examples to go off.)
05-11-2016, 09:57 PM
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a52
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
#74
the god eater

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I personally believe that both the mirror and the actual forum adventure should be as poorly maintained, confusing, badly designed, and unfriendly as possible. Entirely different adventures, if you're up for it. I think I prefer the mirror in this case, since I can make the entire background a garish yellow, whereas on the forum I have to make do with just highlighting text.
05-11-2016, 11:14 PM
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OrangeAipom
 RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring.
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(05-11-2016, 09:57 PM)btp Wrote: If you're a reader and you plan to invest several hours in a webcomic

are forum adventures with images and webcomics the same thing, though? are you sure that the contributions of one person, the main artist, are enough to tell the story? some adventure mirrors have quotes from the thread showing the commands, making the mirror, in practice, an abridged version of the adventure in the forum.

(05-11-2016, 09:57 PM)btp Wrote: A carefully thought out and edited work, or a work slapped together with reader suggestions on an update by update schedule?
but a forum adventure is not carefully thought out. pretending it is such as fraud.

i don't believe i've ever seen a forum adventure mirror update significantly different from the forum adventure update (The closest thing I can think of is Alabaster, that SGRUBventure, changing a page made over a year ago at the time to match Homestuck canon) or a mirror that omits reader suggestions entirely.

though i've also never read the webcomic version of Kill Six Billion Demons so maybe i'd have a better perspective if i did.

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05-12-2016, 01:22 AM
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